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Conversations

SCRIBBLER: Master, you never use the word "god." Why?

THALES: "God" is an obsolete word, along with "faith," "worship," and "prayer." The 'gods' exist only as part of us, as higher centers of the collective unconscious, or as symbols of archetypes of the unconscious.

SCRIBBLER: But doesn't the collective unconscious play the role of a god?

THALES: It may seem to, since the lessons and challenges of moira and karma are given to us by the higher centers. But these are merely the 'self meeting itself' as a result of psychic laws created by us as we passed through that level of differentiation. There are no higher powers, in the sense of creative entities with free will controlling our destinies. Only where droplets of Brahman, and mind, and the collective unconscious, and living matter intersect is there creative energy. Thus, only we have the power the change the past or future or anything else. Precisely because our knowledge and powers are limited, here is where the play of the fool, the dance of death, the great jest, is carried out. Here is the arena of passionate involvement, of growth and decay, of win and loss.

SCRIBBLER: Master we seem to be touching here on the fundamental nature of good and evil. Your views seem far from those current in the West.

THALES: Creative response to challenges is good; evil is stagnation. Unlimited power or unlimited knowledge is not good. If perfection were obtained, it would be boring. Only where there are limitations and challenges is there a game. Things that seem evil, such as dark ages and barbarism, often clear the way for a greater good. What appears to be progress, such as technological growth and natural science, often destroy things more valuable than itself. Good and evil are real enough from one point of view, but from a higher point of view, it takes both together to produce growth (fig. 21). Good may be bad if it leads to stagnation. Destruction can be as creative as construction. Graceful acceptance or retreat is often more creative than strength, initiative and bravery. Forgetting can be as useful as learning. Life is beautiful, in its evil and terrifying aspects as well as its good and gentle. Indeed, one requires the other to complete it. Stagnation is the only ultimate evil, and because of the devil in mankind, stagnation is always temporary.

SCRIBBLER: Should we resign ourselves to follow the Great Way of the Major Arcana or should we rebel?

THALES: If the Great Way were something like commandments of a middle-eastern god, I would say rebel. In FAUST or PARADISE LOST it is the devil that is creative, that is truly following the plan of divinity. Likewise the serpent in the Garden of Eden myth. But the Great Way is not a set of commandments, but a symbolic pattern of expanding possibilities. Each symbolic pattern (each card) can be realized in a great many ways, and there is nothing to prevent us from abandoning the plan altogether. But to do that would make us thing-like, subject to forces beyond our control. Thus, freedom expands as we follow the path.

SCRIBBLER: Master, isn't it strange that the divine plan of growth should be found in an obscure gypsy fortune-telling pack of unknown age and origin? How can we believe it?

THALES: Many things are strange. The Roman Christians must have thought it strange that the avatar would appear among a lowly and despised people (and even they rejected him) rather than in Rome, where his voice could be instantly amplified all over the empire. Great beginnings always have humble origins. 'The last shall be first.'

SCRIBBLER: Master, what is the relevance for today of Jesus Christ and other earlier avatars?

THALES: Very little, if any. What must be understood about Christ is that the historical text dealing with him is irremediably corrupt. Even conventional scholars agree with that. Thus, the only accurate account we have of that particular avatar comes from contemporary avatars....which automatically makes the contemporary avatars of more importance to us, as it should be. No one avatar will ever assume again the total burden of religious life for any segment of humanity. We have a global civilization and the sacred writings and holy ones of all cultures are equally precious to us. The fundamentalists of any sect commit the worst sin of all, idolatry. Devotion to divinity itself must transcend devotion to any particular book, church or formulation of religious thought or life.

SCRIBBLER: Master, what do you think about those who speak in apocalyptic terms of the second coming of Christ, and the End of History?

THALES: Prophets only report what they see, in whatever terms they can. The Renaissance witch Mother Shipton said the world would come to an end in 1880, which is in a sense true. The cultural epoch created in the Renaissance did begin to come unraveled in 1880. From her perspective, the world beyond that point was unformed, so Mother Shipton saw nothing and interpreted it as the end of the world. The Earth will, of course, be here a long time. As to the second coming, this probably began as a misunderstanding of the carpenter's teaching about reincarnation. And the symbolic revelations of the apocalypse are an expression of the pathological collective unconscious of the late Hellenic-Syriac worlds. With a reliable guide such as Cayce, you might be able to make some symbolic sense of it, but to take it literally is madness.

SCRIBBLER: What do you think of the Puritanism which is such a part of Christianity, Islam and Hinduism?

THALES: The world is our home, the arena of evolution. The body is the temple of the spirit. We incarnated for a purpose, which is very far from being fulfilled. Talk of the fall of man and original sin is a misunderstanding of the differentiation down the sephiroth in the past. Talk of escaping the wheel of reincarnation is a misunderstanding of the integration up the sephiroth in the distant future. Like every form of stagnation, constriction, or limitation, Puritanism is of Saturn, fine for strategic retreats under severe conditions but not suitable for the expansion of the human spirit which is now possible.

SCRIBBLER: Master what is unique about your approach to religion?

THALES: This approach is scientific. Religion can no longer be a mere faith, isolated from science or change. Nor is there any point in merely starting a new sect. We must have a new approach, which makes use of inner and outer spiritual experience to frame new hypotheses of thought and action.

SCRIBBLER: Many occultists will dislike your allying yourself with the hated, arrogant, materialistic scientists, who reject all experience which does not confirm their pet theories. And the scientists will not accept you.

THALES: The real scientists will. Science is an intellectual tool which may be used by anyone, establishment and counter-culture alike.

SCRIBBLER: Master, why is empirical religion necessary? Why can't we just have spiritual science?

THALES: Knowing isn't everything. In order for there to be evolution there must be action as well. There must be a transformation of consciousness, which can only be done by the arts and practices of potent religion. We are sinking into degradation and petrification, as did the Hellenic civilization for the same reasons. We must restore spontaneity, creativity and 'life' to man, and to culture. We must restore the open and coherent consciousness of Tribal civilizations in order to create the brilliant steady-state society needed to solve ecological and political problems. All such changes must be preceded by a change of consciousness.

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Interstellar Travellers:

SCRIBBLER:		Master, you never use the word "god." Why?
THALES:		"God" is an obsolete word, along with "faith," "worship," and "prayer." The 'gods' exist only as part of us, as higher centers of the collective unconscious, or as symbols of archetypes of the unconscious.

SCRIBBLER:		But doesn't the collective unconscious play the role of a god?
THALES:		It may seem to, since the lessons and challenges of moira and karma are given to us by the higher centers. But these are merely the 'self meeting itself' as a result of psychic laws created by us as we passed through that level of differentiation. There are no higher powers, in the sense of creative entities with free will controlling our destinies. Only where droplets of Brahman, and mind, and the collective unconscious, and living matter intersect is there creative energy. Thus, only we have the power the change the past or future or anything else. Precisely because our knowledge and powers are limited, here is where the play of the fool, the dance of death, the great jest, is carried out. Here is the arena of passionate involvement, of growth and decay, of win and loss.

SCRIBBLER:		Master we seem to be touching here on the fundamental nature of good and evil. Your views seem far from those current in the West.
THALES:		Creative response to challenges is good; evil is stagnation. Unlimited power or unlimited knowledge is not good. If perfection were obtained, it would be boring. Only where there are limitations and challenges is there a game. Things that seem evil, such as dark ages and barbarism, often clear the way for a greater good. What appears to be progress, such as technological growth and natural science, often destroy things more valuable than itself. Good and evil are real enough from one point of view, but from a higher point of view, it takes both together to produce growth (fig. 21). Good may be bad if it leads to stagnation. Destruction can be as creative as construction. Graceful acceptance or retreat is often more creative than strength, initiative and bravery. Forgetting can be as useful as learning. Life is beautiful, in its evil and terrifying aspects as well as its good and gentle. Indeed, one requires the other to complete it. Stagnation is the only ultimate evil, and because of the devil in mankind, stagnation is always temporary.

SCRIBBLER:		Should we resign ourselves to follow the Great Way of the Major Arcana or should we rebel?
THALES:		If the Great Way were something like commandments of a middle-eastern god, I would say rebel. In FAUST or PARADISE LOST it is the devil that is creative, that is truly following the plan of divinity. Likewise the serpent in the Garden of Eden myth. But the Great Way is not a set of commandments, but a symbolic pattern of expanding possibilities. Each symbolic pattern (each card) can be realized in a great many ways, and there is nothing to prevent us from abandoning the plan altogether. But to do that would make us thing-like, subject to forces beyond our control. Thus, freedom expands as we follow the path.

SCRIBBLER:		Master, isn't it strange that the divine plan of growth should be found in an obscure gypsy fortune-telling pack of unknown age and origin? How can we believe it?
THALES:		Many things are strange. The Roman Christians must have thought it strange that the avatar would appear among a lowly and despised people (and even they rejected him) rather than in Rome, where his voice could be instantly amplified all over the empire. Great beginnings always have humble origins. 'The last shall be first.'

SCRIBBLER:		Master, what is the relevance for today of Jesus Christ and other earlier avatars?
THALES:		Very little, if any. What must be understood about Christ is that the historical text dealing with him is irremediably corrupt. Even conventional scholars agree with that. Thus, the only accurate account we have of that particular avatar comes from contemporary avatars....which automatically makes the contemporary avatars of more importance to us, as it should be. No one avatar will ever assume again the total burden of religious life for any segment of humanity. We have a global civilization and the sacred writings and holy ones of all cultures are equally precious to us. The fundamentalists of any sect commit the worst sin of all, idolatry. Devotion to divinity itself must transcend devotion to any particular book, church or formulation of religious thought or life.

SCRIBBLER:		Master, what do you think about those who speak in apocalyptic terms of the second coming of Christ, and the End of History?
THALES:		Prophets only report what they see, in whatever terms they can. The Renaissance witch Mother Shipton said the world would come to an end in 1880, which is in a sense true. The cultural epoch created in the Renaissance did begin to come unraveled in 1880. From her perspective, the world beyond that point was unformed, so Mother Shipton saw nothing and interpreted it as the end of the world. The Earth will, of course, be here a long time. As to the second coming, this probably began as a misunderstanding of the carpenter's teaching about reincarnation. And the symbolic revelations of the apocalypse are an expression of the pathological collective unconscious of the late Hellenic-Syriac worlds. With a reliable guide such as Cayce, you might be able to make some symbolic sense of it, but to take it literally is madness.

SCRIBBLER:		What do you think of the Puritanism which is such a part of Christianity, Islam and Hinduism?
THALES:		The world is our home, the arena of evolution. The body is the temple of the spirit. We incarnated for a purpose, which is very far from being fulfilled. Talk of the fall of man and original sin is a misunderstanding of the differentiation down the sephiroth in the past. Talk of escaping the wheel of reincarnation is a misunderstanding of the integration up the sephiroth in the distant future. Like every form of stagnation, constriction, or limitation, Puritanism is of Saturn, fine for strategic retreats under severe conditions but not suitable for the expansion of the human spirit which is now possible.

SCRIBBLER:		Master what is unique about your approach to religion?
THALES:		This approach is scientific. Religion can no longer be a mere faith, isolated from science or change. Nor is there any point in merely starting a new sect. We must have a new approach, which makes use of inner and outer spiritual experience to frame new hypotheses of thought and action.

SCRIBBLER:		Many occultists will dislike your allying yourself with the hated, arrogant, materialistic scientists, who reject all experience which does not confirm their pet theories. And the scientists will not accept you.
THALES:		The real scientists will. Science is an intellectual tool which may be used by anyone, establishment and counter-culture alike.

SCRIBBLER:		Master, why is empirical religion necessary? Why can't we just have spiritual science?
THALES:		Knowing isn't everything. In order for there to be evolution there must be action as well. There must be a transformation of consciousness, which can only be done by the arts and practices of potent religion. We are sinking into degradation and petrification, as did the Hellenic civilization for the same reasons. We must restore spontaneity, creativity and 'life' to man, and to culture. We must restore the open and coherent consciousness of Tribal civilizations in order to create the brilliant steady-state society needed to solve ecological and political problems. All such changes must be preceded by a change of consciousness.